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Sebastian Vettel

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Sebastian Vettel

Postby NeverCryWolf on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:50 am

IMO there is not a doubt about who is the Sportsman of the year: Sebastian Vettel _O_

Häkkinen knows who the Sportsman of the year is - "Unbelievable achievement"

04.03.2013 21:23 | Formula 1 |

Sebastian Vettel is nominated for the Laureus-award as year 2013 sportsman. Other nominated sportsmen are Lionel Messi, Bradley Wiggins, Usain Bolt, Mo Farah and Michael Phelps.

Mika Häkkinen told German Motorsport Magazine that for him it's clear who most deserves the award.

- Last year Sebastian Vettel proved what kind of a fighter and competitor he is, Häkkinen said.

- At the end of the season Vettel drove a first-class racing car and there were no doubts about the driver's great talent and skill. He is 25-years old and has three championships; it's an almost unbelievable achievement.

- I wonder how many championships there is still to come during the next ten years? Vettel could well make history with his records, Häkkinen thinks.

http://www.suomif1.com/2013/03/hakkinen ... -saavutus/

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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lawrence on Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:26 pm

Sorry, but should be Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps. In the end, Sebastian Vettel only had to beat 23 other guys drawn from a very limited slice of society. Furthermore, some of them may have been better than him except they didn't have the best car.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Mafia on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:00 am

I am sorry, sportsman of the year? thats like a bit too much Mika.. driving the fastest car winning the title isnt something special, heck button can win in the fast car. judging by the performance in difficult circumstances, i'll give award for best sportsman of the year to our magician = Fernando
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby raymondu999 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:37 am

IMO his 2012 season he performed fantastically - maybe not the outright best, who most people (including myself) would place on Fernando - but his 2012 season, IMO - has been underrated by many. IMO Vettel is one of F1's fastest qualifiers at the moment, and people really underrate qualifying as a skill sometimes, putting it down to just the car. Going by that logic - F1 should always have teammates qualifying next to each other in a Noah's Ark grid. Which isn't the case.

Fernando was very consistent in 2012 - I grant you that. But let's not forget that had it not been for:
a) a clumsy get-together with Karthikeyan in Malaysia
b) alternator failure in Valencia
c) alternator failure in Monza

Vettel would have finished every (note: every) race in the season in the top 6 - bar none. I could take this further -

Had it not been for:
a) Vettel's drivethrough for his DRS being open as Schumacher crashed into Senna right in front of him (at Barcelona)
b) a bad pitstop call in Brazil (when the teams put him on a fresh set of medium tyres, one lap before the conditions changed to intermediate-tyre conditions)

Vettel would have finished every race in the season, in the top 5.

In conclusion, I agree that in 2012 Fernando Alonso was a better sportsman than Vettel...
So if you are saying:
a) Vettel doesn't deserve it, because there was someone better than him that year - I fully agree.
b) Vettel doesn't deserve it, because he's not a great sportsman - I disagree.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby NeverCryWolf on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:42 pm

raymondu999 wrote:IMO his 2012 season he performed fantastically - maybe not the outright best, who most people (including myself) would place on Fernando - but his 2012 season, IMO - has been underrated by many. IMO Vettel is one of F1's fastest qualifiers at the moment, and people really underrate qualifying as a skill sometimes, putting it down to just the car. Going by that logic - F1 should always have teammates qualifying next to each other in a Noah's Ark grid. Which isn't the case.

Fernando was very consistent in 2012 - I grant you that. But let's not forget that had it not been for:
a) a clumsy get-together with Karthikeyan in Malaysia
b) alternator failure in Valencia
c) alternator failure in Monza

Vettel would have finished every (note: every) race in the season in the top 6 - bar none. I could take this further -

Had it not been for:
a) Vettel's drivethrough for his DRS being open as Schumacher crashed into Senna right in front of him (at Barcelona)
b) a bad pitstop call in Brazil (when the teams put him on a fresh set of medium tyres, one lap before the conditions changed to intermediate-tyre conditions)

Vettel would have finished every race in the season, in the top 5.

In conclusion, I agree that in 2012 Fernando Alonso was a better sportsman than Vettel...
So if you are saying:
a) Vettel doesn't deserve it, because there was someone better than him that year - I fully agree.
b) Vettel doesn't deserve it, because he's not a great sportsman - I disagree.


I rate Vettel very high because he did it on his own. With all the help Alonso got he should have been able to win the WDC.

It's very difficult to 'rate' the drivers since it also depends upon if they have or don't have to race their teammates at the same time. And in Brazil Webber was clearly racing against Vettel, my heart nearly stopped :argh:
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby mnmracer on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:03 pm

What's annoyed me the last couple of years, and last year more than any, is the constant politics from within certain parts of Formula One. Especially Alonso, touting his own horn every other weekend one way or another, downplaying and upplaying cars beyond reasonable believe. 4 races. 4 out of 20 races there were where the Red Bull (read: Vettel) was dominant, yet if we were to believe Alonso, it was 2011 all over again. Even now, people are acting like it was Red Bull who were the dominant force at last races of 2012.

If you look at all the contexts, there is little separating Alonso's and Vettel's performances this year. They were both there every race where their car could bring them, and they were both there to strike when faster cars faltered. I personally believe Vettel was the better driver because he performed time after time when the pressure was on, and even in the three races Webber was faster, he never looked as lost as Alonso did in Brazil. But it was close, and it's a darn shame that the beauty of that closeness last season is taken away by polticis.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Paul on Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:17 pm

I'll have to answer better when sober Brrrrrp, but in short, I still think Alonso is the best out there and did a bloody good job, better than anyone else could have, with what he had to work with
RBR were the best out there for the last couple of years, and Vettel, being their preferencial NO1 saw the best of both worlds :beer:
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby raymondu999 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:36 am

RBR were the best car last year? Really?
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby IanK on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:49 am

NeverCryWolf wrote:With all the help Alonso got he should have been able to win the WDC.

Never mind that Alonso had, at the absolute best, the third fastest car... miles behind Red Bull and McLaren. When Lotus was on form it was fourth fastest. When Mercedes or Sauber got it together for a race or two it was occasionally only fifth fastest. In other words, in the hands of an average driver last year's Ferrari was an upper midfield car. To finish only three points back of Vettel in a Red Bull that was challenged only by McLaren in terms of pure pace in the second half of the season is a major accomplishment regardless of how much help Alonso had. Don't forget, when McLaren was in a similar situation performance-wise with Williams and Benetton in 1993 Senna finished a full 26 points behind Prost and was celebrated for putting up that much of a fight. You don't hear people saying Senna should have done better in that dog of a McLaren because the team put everything into his effort once they realized Andretti was worthless, do you?

raymondu999 wrote:RBR were the best car last year? Really?

The second half of the season they certainly were. McLaren may have been for the first few rounds, but late charge aside Red Bull had the better of them for most of the year.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby raymondu999 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:00 am

IanK wrote:When Lotus was on form it was fourth fastest.

Tell that to Bahrain, Barcelona, Canada, Valencia, Silverstone and Hungary, where they were clearly better than 4th fastest.

When Mercedes or Sauber got it together for a race or two it was occasionally only fifth fastest.

The Sauber was 5th quickest in Malaysia? Canada? Monza? Suzuka? Mercedes was 5th quickest in China? Monaco?

In other words, in the hands of an average driver last year's Ferrari was an upper midfield car.

Not in race pace it wasn't. Like how Alonso on medium tyres could go within a tenth of Vettel (on 26-lap-older soft tyres) in Abu Dhabi. Or how, in the single racetrack which is known to be very much a car circuit (as opposed to a circuit where driver can make a difference) - Barcelona - Alonso qualified P3 and proceeded to P2. Or how in India the Ferrari was faster than Vettel (Vettel was pushing hard for fastest lap, but Alonso and Button both trumped it).

On race pace, that Ferrari was (from Barcelona onwards) a frontrunner. Except for maybe Hungary and Singapore. It was the qualifying pace that kept making it look bad - and unfortunately, a lot of people only seem to look at qualifying to justify a car's position in the pecking order.

The second half of the season they certainly were. McLaren may have been for the first few rounds, but late charge aside Red Bull had the better of them for most of the year.

You sure?

Hockenheim - on par with McLaren, I'd call it a tie
Hungary - McLaren were ahead on pace
Spa - Button. Need I say more?
Monza - would've been a 1-2, had it not been for Button's fuel problem
Singapore - would've been at least a 1-3 for McLaren, perhaps even a 1-2, without the safety car and Hamilton's gearbox shenanigans
Suzuka - Red Bull were quicker
Korea - Red Bull were quicker
India - Red Bull were quicker
Austin - Red Bull may have looked quicker, but they weren't - you could see that Hamilton just pulled away after Vettel was passed. Even in the downforce-heavy Sector 1, Lewis was consistently 1 tenth quicker than Vettel there, WHILE IN VETTEL'S DIRTY AIR
Brazil - No Red Bull got near the podium, while the McLarens (and, admittedly, Hulkenberg) romped

To my count that's 6-4, in McLaren's favor. I think the fact that Vettel lead every lap of the race for 3.5 races may be clouding your judgment on which car is quicker.

I need to make it clear that I am NOT disputing your claim of Alonso doing a fantastic job. He did brilliantly last year - the best season of any driver in the field. There were races when other drivers rose to the same level, but Alonso did that in a sustained fashion over more of the season than other drivers. But I am disputing your arguments of which cars were in which position.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby f1datavis on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:05 am

I guess it all comes down to the old chestnut of driver and machine combined makes a world champion.

Let's be clear, McLaren threw away a 2nd WDC for Hamilton last year. Yes, the Red Bull was for long periods the faster car but the McLaren was consistently quick throughout the season, as well as consistently unreliable. Maybe it was always destined to be this way - fast and unreliable has a long and noble history in our sport. ^o^

But in terms of "who was the better driver in 2012", I see it like this. You put Fernando in the Red Bull last year and he would have walked the championship. With ease... Does that take away from Vettel's championship? Not at all, he still had to see it out, and he produced some stunning wins. RB totally understood and built their GP weekend tactics around DRS. It meant that if the Red Bull was fast enough for pole, all things being equal Vettel was on pole and that meant a race win, simply from how they set up the car. When the chips were down in Brazil, however, and Sebastien had to pass a lot of cars to take the championship, he produced the goods. Vettel is probably the best qualifier on the grid at the moment.

Ultimately though, I have to agree with Ian, Alonso was far the best driver in 2012. Routinely scoring more points than and more race wins than that Ferrari deserved, particularly in the first half of the season. One more alternator failure on the RB, or some suspension damage to Vettel's car in his 1st lap incident in Brazil and the championship was Fernando's.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby IanK on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:29 am

raymondu999 wrote:
IanK wrote:When Lotus was on form it was fourth fastest.

Tell that to Bahrain, Barcelona, Canada, Valencia, Silverstone and Hungary, where they were clearly better than 4th fastest.

When Mercedes or Sauber got it together for a race or two it was occasionally only fifth fastest.

The Sauber was 5th quickest in Malaysia? Canada? Monza? Suzuka? Mercedes was 5th quickest in China? Monaco?

Okay, either English is not your native language and pronominal statements are still a bit tricky or you're intentionally misinterpreting my comments to suit your own argument here. The sentence previous to the Lotus one, which you conveniently omitted, made it very clear that in the context of those statements the "it" in question was Ferrari. I was saying that in general Ferrari had the third fastest car while it was not unusual for them to be slower than Lotus (i.e. fourth fastest) and there was the odd weekend where either Sauber or Mercedes were faster than Ferrari (i.e. fifth fastest).

raymondu999 wrote:
IanK wrote:
In other words, in the hands of an average driver last year's Ferrari was an upper midfield car.

Not in race pace it wasn't. Like how Alonso on medium tyres could go within a tenth of Vettel (on 26-lap-older soft tyres) in Abu Dhabi. Or how, in the single racetrack which is known to be very much a car circuit (as opposed to a circuit where driver can make a difference) - Barcelona - Alonso qualified P3 and proceeded to P2. Or how in India the Ferrari was faster than Vettel (Vettel was pushing hard for fastest lap, but Alonso and Button both trumped it).

Again, in the hands of an average driver. No one with an even basic knowledge of F1 would even think of saying Alonso is an average driver. While he's not quite on the level of a Schumacher or Clark, Alonso is a once or twice in a generation talent on par with the Laudas and Fittipaldis of the world. Massa, on the other hand, Massa is very much an average or slightly below average driver. And guess what? More often than not he was hanging around somewhere in the upper midfield, if not the midfield proper.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby raymondu999 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:58 am

IanK wrote:Okay, either English is not your native language and pronominal statements are still a bit tricky or you're intentionally misinterpreting my comments to suit your own argument here. The sentence previous to the Lotus one, which you conveniently omitted, made it very clear that in the context of those statements the "it" in question was Ferrari. I was saying that in general Ferrari had the third fastest car while it was not unusual for them to be slower than Lotus (i.e. fourth fastest) and there was the odd weekend where either Sauber or Mercedes were faster than Ferrari (i.e. fifth fastest).

Ack. Derp. Apologies. It is indeed not my first language. 5th, to be specific.

raymondu999 wrote:Again, in the hands of an average driver. No one with an even basic knowledge of F1 would even think of saying Alonso is an average driver.

Pace is pace - a slow driver driving a fast race pace car, means that the car is still fast in race pace - just that the car is being driven below its limit. Otherwise, you have to compare the F2012's pace to the other cars, in the hands of an average driver.

Don't compare the pace of the F2012 "in the hands of an average driver" against the competition "in the hands of an above average driver." Then I'd certainly disqualify comparing Massa's pace to Vettel's or Hamilton's - because I don't consider Hamilton or Vettel to be average drivers either.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby mnmracer on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:33 pm

IanK wrote:When Lotus was on form it was fourth fastest. When Mercedes or Sauber got it together for a race or two it was occasionally only fifth fastest.

Making statements like 'ocasionally Lotus/Mercedes/Sauber was faster than Ferrari' is exactly the politics I was talking about. You don't say that if you don't want to make the Ferrari look bad. At times the Lotus/Mercedes/Sauber was also faster than Red Bull. Does that make the Red Bull an upper midfield car over the whole season? Don't go cry me a river about how horrible this Ferrari allegedly was.

f1datavis wrote:You put Fernando in the Red Bull last year and he would have walked the championship. With ease...

Another popular statement, yet one I have never seen substantiated.
Exactly where would he have walked the championship? Where do you think Vettel's talents lacked so much that Alonso could have taken the championship for a walk?

The only absolute we know about extracting the maximum from the car is that Vettel has lost three races to his team-mate on his own, and Massa was faster than Alonso in 3 races. Within their team, relative to their team-mate, they have each extracted as much from the car as the other. To think there is a 'walking the championship' in that grey area where we don't know 100% how fast a car is, is a long shot.

So I remain curious, exactly where would Alonso's superior talents have elevated the results last year?
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby IanK on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:37 am

mnmracer wrote: Don't go cry me a river about how horrible this Ferrari allegedly was.


Around the midpoint of last season f1datavis posted a graphic showing the aggregate of the fastest times recorded by each team at any point in the weekend over the first 11 rounds. McLaren was fastest and Red Bull was in 3rd about a second back overall (so about a tenth slower each round on average). They also came alive in the second half of the season, scoring five of their seven fast laps and four of their seven poles in the last ten rounds. Ferrari was 5th, half a second off the pace per lap. They were also over a second closer overall to Force India in 8th than they were to Red Bull in 3rd. Again, this was after round 11. Ferrari didn't have a single fast lap all season and they didn't score a single pole or race win after Germany, which was round ten. The data shows that Red Bull was noticeably ahead of Ferrari at the halfway point. In addition to this, the results show that Red Bull improved their pace over the second half while Ferrari regressed. So, please, save me the dramatics over how I'm intentionally trying to make Ferrari look bad so I can upsell Alonso's performance. If anything the data says I was being generous by saying they were 3rd best.
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