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Engine War 2015

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

Moderators: Lyria, Mafia, Lawrence, Administrator

Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Lawrence on Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:22 pm

From a practical point of view, Ferrari is already supplying two customers under contract and Red Bull and Toro Rosso show up at the last minute and try to strong arm their way into an engine deal. Ferrari has their workload and staffing planned for next year. Hard to ramp up to meet Red Bull's demand, unless they are going to be a long-term customer (which I kind of doubt). Certianly don't want to hire a lot of people to supply RB and TR with engines for a year or two, and then have to let them go.

It sounds like RB and TR need to take the 2015 engines for a year while they work up their own engine deal. In all reality, it sounds like they should have made it work with Renault for another year while they worked up their own engine deal.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Sakae on Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:55 pm

In operations expanded sales demand would have to be managed either by delayed deliveries, or dramatic increase of temporary resources, for which someone would have to pay over and above existing cost. I doubt it would be fair to charge it to the existing customers. For outsider it might be all black and white issue (go to the store, pick one of the shelve and its done), yet in reality for people who actually have to implement these changes, it could be less fun than it sounds, unless of course capacity is heavily underutilized at the moment, which I seriously doubt, based on Allison's concerns. Added resources makes sense if one plans for many years running, not just a year or so, and customer takes then off. I hate to say this, but normal strategy would be to secure an engine deal first, and then get into letter writing business, and not the other way around. RB really painted themselves into a bad situation, because Renault is not going to kill themselves now to make them happy. It will be polite, all in adherence with the existing agreements, but nothing spectacular.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Willie Caja on Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:03 pm

Who want a Hondaaaaaa!
Fresh from the oveeeeen!
Get'em while they're hot!

:hihi:
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Lawrence on Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:22 pm

The Renault is right now....better.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Lawrence on Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:33 pm

Interesting quote from the front page news: "It's not a question of tokens," a Renault engineer is quoted as saying, "but the solutions. We have tokens but no solutions"

Apparently Renault still have 12 tokens left, with only 4 races remaining.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Sakae on Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:06 pm

I read the off-cut and ambiguous remark from an unnamed source as well, but unless placed into context, knowing well "engineering talk" when things are tight, I can interpret this remark in several ways, and it might not necessarily meant the worst. That Ilmore consulting was on one cylinder only, and results were not necessarilly much better was Renault had already.

My position of doubt is supported by the fact, that Lotus has not left F1 (yet). Mr. Ghoson's directive was very straightforward, that he wants assurances from his F1 management there is light at the end of tunnel, or there is no more support for F1 from his side.

But the report on Friday said the big issue for Renault is that its CEO Carlos Ghosn may not want to green-light a triple-digit million euro project if there is no prospect the French marque can fix its troubled F1 engine.
En savoir plus sur http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/10/16/ferr ... 2FtD13w.99


Renault needs clean sheet design, a reason why current token system - I do consider as failed - to deliver.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Lawrence on Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:41 pm

Can Renault simply state that they are creating a new engine and start again?
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Sakae on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:05 am

GP247:

And in yet another interview, with the Independent newspaper, Ecclestone suggested that Ferrari and Mercedes – for instance by refusing to work with Red Bull – are in effect holding the sport to ransom.


In blaming game it was not a question IF it will take a place, but rather WHEN, and here we are. I do however agree with basic proposition (discussed in other parts of the interview), that engine supplies to competitors by a manufacturer which owns a racing team, is fundamentally flawed concept for conflict of interest, and unsurmountable logistical challenges blocking level playing field within given regulatory framework.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Lawrence on Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:57 pm

Todt just put out an interview where he said that the engine regulations are working just fine and the only real problem is the cost. I gather he sees no need for any radical changes.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Sakae on Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:41 pm

I gather Mr. JT is a good facilitator, which worked at Maranello. Right or wrong, based on outcome of developments over past several years I am not convinced today, that everyone important whose voice counts at the table, fully actually understands long term impact of their decisions. In fact I like most from all of them Ms. Yeoh, and I vote for her to take over top line negotiations.

There is a petition out, seeking signatures from 50MM fans - bring back V10 in 2017.

I am hoping sanity will prevail. Some fans simply do not understand that hopping from one project to another every few months is not the way to bring cost down. Where was the author of this petition three years ago? Lack of wisdom then? Well, there is none in that today either.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Lawrence on Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:10 pm

I don't think that bringing back the V-10 is the right way to go.* F1 needs to keep moving forward.

Second season of Formula E starts in 24 October. Watch it if you can. There is a danger that F1 could end up running a collection of NASCAR-like dinosaurs, while some high-tech, low-cost, competitive, customer-savvy series proceeds to draw away the next generation of fans.

I don't know how long it will be before electric and hybrid cars start regularly replacing gas powered engines. I am now regularly seeing Tesla's on the road in my area, and they are impressive. Will it be 10 years before the internal combustion engine is a thing of past, 20 years...or will it be never?


----------
* Specifically, I believe that F1 should cater to all engine arrangements (4s, V-6, V-8s, V-10s, V-12s, W-16, H-16, hybrid, electric, etc), with maybe a car weight adjustment as needed to make all configurations roughly equivalent. Of course, I would only recommend this if there was a budget cap.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Sakae on Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:41 pm

I am in odds on the issue with Sebastian, who doesn't believe E-series is a threat, but if you go back enough on this forum, I've admitted long time ago that whilst it is in its embryonic stage, yet it will ultimately give F1 run for their money. I would predict its exponential growth, and in the absence of some fatal strategic error on part of governance, it is here to stay and flourish, methinks. No one can turn clock back, or stop progress, and even if E-series dies, another will follow. At the moment, to me, sadly, E-series has more solid future than F1, and I am saying this as someone who is with F1 as a fan since 1974. Noise level and absence of speed are bogus issues IMO, and least of worrisome items.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Lawrence on Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:24 pm

I think F1 has time to respond to Formula E (5 years...10 years?). But... going back to V-10s is really not the start of a good response. I think F1's hybrid cars are here to stay.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Sakae on Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:54 am

Alonso: upgrades (closed that gap to the front) worth 1 sec.
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Re: Engine War 2015

Postby Lawrence on Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:16 pm

More like 0.1 seconds. That was not encouraging.
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