ad
Countdown to 2016 Australian Grandprix:
2016 Formula1 World Championship Calendar

Australia | Bahrain | China | Russia | Spain | Monaco | Canada | Baku | Austria | Great Britain | Hungary | Germany | Belgium | Italy | Singapore | Malaysia | Japan | USA | Mexico | Brazil | Abu Dhabi

2015 Hungarian GP

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

Moderators: Lyria, Mafia, Lawrence, Administrator

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:50 am

Lawrence wrote:Paolo:

By default, if DR was catching Rosberg, then he was closing the gap to Vettel.


He wasn't catching Rosberg, his gap stayed the same for most of the time between the SC restart and their accident
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:00 am

Lawrence wrote:
Paolo 2 wrote:What IMHO was remarkable was that Vettel managed to keep his cool and manage to be just over 1 second ahead of Rosberg each time they reached the DRS detection point


He may have been managing the gap (meaning he had more speed he was not showing) but considering that his fastest lap time was 1-2 seconds slower than DR, Rosberg and Hamilton, I am not so sure he had a lot to spare.


I don't think that Vettel "managed" the gap in the sense that he had some spare performance that he could have used had Rosberg managed to get any closer, I think that he "managed" the gap not to fall under 1 second by pushing as hard as possible given the circumstances

And with respect to their best laps you have to consider that both Ricciardo and Rosberg (if I'm not mistaken) posted their fastest laps after they both had pitted to change tyres after their accident, with fresh (option) tyres, little fuel and a clean track it's easy to be faster than the guy who has done 30 laps on primes and is only tasked to manage his car to the flag, it would have been amazing had Ricciardo in those circumstances not been significantly faster than Vettel.

But the point IMHO is very simple: had Ricciardo been "faster" he would have been ahead of Vettel (if I remember correctly he was about 40 seconds off when the SC was deployed), all he managed to do was get close to him thanks to the SC, and notwithstanding the fact that he had a faster set of tyres during the last stint he never managed to be faster - on track - than Vettel (or Rosberg for that matter), he was little under 2 seconds off for many laps and never managed to get any closer.
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Lyria on Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:15 am

Rosberg admits he didn't have a good balance set up on the car, he was unhappy with it after qualifying and over compensated pushing it the other way for the race. That could explain his lack of pace to a degree. Mercedes really need to work on their starts though, they're letting them down big time right now.

For me, Vettel did really well to gain the lead and keep it, especially after the safety car. Vettel put on a set of used primes and that was always going to be the slower tyre, Rosberg did the same thing I believe, though DC said at the time he didn't understand that as the option would have been the much faster tyre at that point, however he considered Rosberg was scared of them dropping off too much at the end of the race. Ricciardo on the other hand had a brand new set of options that Red Bull had saved for just this circumstance and he sure made the most of them. If he hadn't had the accidents he did, I think he'd have caught Vettel easily and probably passed him too.

For me Ricciardo needs to get over this attitude of 'I'm coming through get ot of my way or else' that he seems to have developed. I am with Sakae on this, I simply don't like it. Hamilton tends to lean in that direction too and given a chance so does Perez, among others. There is no need to do that, if you're a good driver you can get by anyway in a clean manner.

As for Kimi, I simply think he knew he couldn't get by Vettel even if he could catch him (I don't think he could) so he held back to give his car air and so on. I certainly don't see that he is a number 2 driver and was told to do that or anything and it's unfair to suggest that is the case. He's a smart guy, he knows that driving directly in the dirty air of the car in front is only going to end up damaging your own car/race, so he didn't do it, end of.

Vettel in no way had the fastest car that day, he did however see an opportunity and he took it. He drove very well and deserved the win.
User avatar
Lyria
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 17749
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:01 am
Location: England

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Sakae on Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:30 am

Lawrence wrote:
Sakae wrote:
Kamikaze style of recent dives by DR have not impressed me at all, as they lacking finesse seen on part of more mature drivers.


Pretty much the only option he has if he is going to pass a car that is faster on the straights. How else does it pass. Has nothing to do with maturity, has a lot to do with being a racer.
You have changed your mind then, and don't mind anymore Vettel's pass on Webber in Turkey 2010? If so, good for you coming around on that.
Whatever you do, don’t just do it. Push it forward! [Whitelines]
Sakae
 
Posts: 3944
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:18 pm
Location: EU

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:11 pm

Sakae wrote:You have changed your mind then, and don't mind anymore Vettel's pass on Webber in Turkey 2010? If so, good for you coming around on that.


I haven't changed my mind, I thought that Vettel was right in 2010 in trying and I think that Ricciardo was right in trying last Sunday, pity for him that it didn't work, but IMHO these guys have to try, that's what they're there for
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Sakae on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:30 pm

I am making distinction between racing craft, and kamikaze hopeless muddying exhibited by this RB driver, setting bad examples for others, if this will be permited to spread around. DR in Monaco and in Hungary simply dived in, literally forcing his way through, making two for two undesirable contacts. I have seen Schumacher being 1/2 meter from DR in pretty fast quickstep dance through a few turns at Indianapolis, a no contact was made. That's definition of trying and making difference for me.
Pretty soon people will be moving away from DR in fear, that he, with unpunished history, will take them out of the race, and gets away with it. To take this a step further, I don't think some drivers like Vettel, or Grosjean would be treated as benevolently as he is.
Whatever you do, don’t just do it. Push it forward! [Whitelines]
Sakae
 
Posts: 3944
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:18 pm
Location: EU

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Sakae on Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:32 pm

I am now learning of the net about supposition within a group of fans (you can guess which one), that race was actually FIXED, to give JB nice Ciao Jules in red colors. Despicable as the suggestion actually is, looks like some people have difficult time to accept, that Hamilton did not win that race for reasons even he might have difficulty to explain. I understand that. Before the race Lauda was commenting about his "concern" that Hamilton will lap whole field, and how that will impact on F1 image, yet he ended up 6th, 52 sec behind, but luckily on the same lap. Gap between beautiful concern, and race result is really hard to explain and the Conspiracy is the word!
Whatever you do, don’t just do it. Push it forward! [Whitelines]
Sakae
 
Posts: 3944
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:18 pm
Location: EU

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:05 pm

Sakae wrote:DR in Monaco and in Hungary simply dived in, literally forcing his way through, making two for two undesirable contacts.


he didn't force his way through, his entry on Rosberg in Hungary was perfectly clean, my only remark is that IMHO he should have given Rosberg some space on the exit but I really don't see where he was wrong in trying such a move, he didn't come anywhere near Rosberg under braking (what happened next IMHO has nothing to do with him trying under braking)
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Sakae on Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:41 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:
Sakae wrote:DR in Monaco and in Hungary simply dived in, literally forcing his way through, making two for two undesirable contacts.


he didn't force his way through, his entry on Rosberg in Hungary was perfectly clean, my only remark is that IMHO he should have given Rosberg some space on the exit but I really don't see where he was wrong in trying such a move, he didn't come anywhere near Rosberg under braking (what happened next IMHO has nothing to do with him trying under braking)
You are Paulo more experienced in this than I am, and perhaps you see more clearly something what I don't. I have no problem to accept that without argument. For me, to put it in shortest terms, this is very much deterministic process in which one action triggers another, and if all would have been clean and spotless, both drivers would have come out of it unscathed, but that's not what happened, as we know.

This is how it has been described:
But it all went wrong after he (DR) dived down the inside of the Mercedes at Turn 1. After locking up and trying to hold his line around the outside, Rosberg's left rear tyre broke Ricciardo's front wing, forcing a pitstop...
Now it seems DR in a following car bears some responsibility here for end-result, just as Hamilton (then a front car) refused to accept any responsibility in the Spa when he and Rosberg got together. Whether it is a racing accident or something else, I leave it at this point.
Whatever you do, don’t just do it. Push it forward! [Whitelines]
Sakae
 
Posts: 3944
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:18 pm
Location: EU

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:38 pm

IMHO he bears responsibility for not taking care when rejoining the racing line, not for trying to pass Rosberg under braking, he didn't touch Rosberg under braking, Ricciardo attempt to pass was spotless clean, he simply made a mistake (and not a massive one for that matter) afterwards. So I have no problems if he tries to pass other cars under braking, on the contrary I quite enjoy it and I'm grateful that he tries. The point is that when you are near the limit small mistakes can happen and I'm not incensed that he made a minor mistake when he took the racing line at the exit of turn 1, it can easily happen to anyone
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:50 pm

Sakae wrote:Now it seems DR in a following car bears some responsibility here for end-result, just as Hamilton (then a front car) refused to accept any responsibility in the Spa when he and Rosberg got together. Whether it is a racing accident or something else, I leave it at this point.


Sure Ricciardo (IMHO) bears responsibility for what happened, but IMHO his responsibility doesn't arise from his pass under braking but rather from what happened next. I believe that what happened last Sunday between Ricciardo and Rosberg has not much to do with what happened last year at Spa, last Sunday Ricciardo couldn't keep a racing line whereas Rosberg at Spa could (and in fact was holding the racing line since hamilton had gone defensive on the inside); furthermore Ricciardo's problem started when he was clearly behind Rosberg and had to give position because he had made a mistake whereas the thing at Spa began when both cars were side by side, they both could have taken the racing line (Rosberg was already holding it in fact), IMHO the difference between the two accidents is that Ricciardo had to leave room for Rosberg as he was behind and had made a mistake while both Rosberg and Hamilton decided not to leave any room for the other but where not under the obbligation to do so, they were side by side (when the thing started) and none of the two had made a mistake or was in a position where he had to give way
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Sakae on Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:56 pm

Thank you Paulo for taking time to explain your point of view. I have taken most likely more superficial assessment, which is (i) contact was made, (ii) error of judgement occurred, (iii) onus for execution of the maneuver was predominantly on the car that was overtaking. Based on those parameters, I had difficulty to accept the result, but I see now that you value effort, rather than result or process, which is fine. Risk taken by DR exceeded my threshold of tolerance, and perhaps a reason why I am so hard nose about it.
Whatever you do, don’t just do it. Push it forward! [Whitelines]
Sakae
 
Posts: 3944
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:18 pm
Location: EU

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Lawrence on Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:45 pm

Sakae wrote:You have changed your mind then, and don't mind anymore Vettel's pass on Webber in Turkey 2010? If so, good for you coming around on that.


Hardly a relevant discussion as both him and Webber were driving the same car. In fact, completely irrelevant as Webber has already gone into the fuel saving mode on his car for that lap and Vettel had not, making Vettel the faster car !!!

It was an accident that cost Vettel a lot of points in a championship that he barely won by only 4 points. Not clever by any count.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
User avatar
Lawrence
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 10465
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 am
Location: United States --- Washington DC

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Lawrence on Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:47 pm

Sakae wrote:I am now learning of the net about supposition within a group of fans (you can guess which one), that race was actually FIXED, to give JB nice Ciao Jules in red colors.


Not anyone on this board I gather.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
User avatar
Lawrence
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 10465
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 am
Location: United States --- Washington DC

Re: 2015 Hungarian GP

Postby Lyria on Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:34 pm

Well the theory of why Hungary was the race it became could be because of what happened to Jules Bianchi, not because the race was in any way fixed though obviously. From what I read it seems like there was too much intense emotion about his death and it was too close to the start of the race. When you read it, I'd say it makes total sense too. None of the current drivers were around when we lost Senna to my knowledge, so they've never faced something like this before and they're humans so yes, it did get to some of them.

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft31556.html
User avatar
Lyria
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 17749
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:01 am
Location: England

Previous

Return to Formula One Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Copyright 1988-2011, Inside F1, Inc.