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2015 Italian GP

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

Moderators: Lyria, Mafia, Lawrence, Administrator

Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:35 am

Paolo 2 wrote:
Lyria wrote:Actually Sakae, I blame Mercedes for not getting it right. All the other teams managed to have their tyres at the right pressure so it can't have been that hard to do can it?


I must admit that I totally agree with what you said Lyria, it does seem like a very straightforward matter to me, they either were or were not within the set tyre pressure limits, as they say "tertium not datur"


This discussion strongly implies, that FiA is infallible and their word is THE TRUTH. I have difficulty with a such notion. Their word could be final, but for data to be credible, must be supported by a credible collection process. The Stewards of the Race had some doubts about that procedure; it is on the records, and I can envision a factor or two which, makes their doubts plausible. Moreover, I am not sure if this is correct that all teams were in the clear, but Mercedes. Sampling of tire pressure at Monza, if I am not mistaken, was done only on two teams. This discussion could be extended and argued whether result Bauer obtained was due to something Mercedes has done, Pirelli, or both, because if the Mercedes race strategist instructed Pirelli to set pressure at the low limit, he surely didn't mean exactly at the low limit, but slightly higher above due to anticipated pressure drop during cooling cycle, and only Pirelli knows how much above that has to be to stay within legal limits before race starts, and tires begging to warm up again. Anyway, I think I beat this horse to its death by now, nor I am sure whether anyone's mind has been changed.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:20 am

Sakae wrote:
Paolo 2 wrote:
Lyria wrote:Actually Sakae, I blame Mercedes for not getting it right. All the other teams managed to have their tyres at the right pressure so it can't have been that hard to do can it?


I must admit that I totally agree with what you said Lyria, it does seem like a very straightforward matter to me, they either were or were not within the set tyre pressure limits, as they say "tertium not datur"


This discussion strongly implies, that FiA is infallible and their word is THE TRUTH. I have difficulty with a such notion. Their word could be final, but for data to be credible, must be supported by a credible collection process. The Stewards of the Race had some doubts about that procedure; it is on the records, and I can envision a factor or two which, makes their doubts plausible. Moreover, I am not sure if this is correct that all teams were in the clear, but Mercedes. Sampling of tire pressure at Monza, if I am not mistaken, was done only on two teams. This discussion could be extended and argued whether result Bauer obtained was due to something Mercedes has done, Pirelli, or both, because if the Mercedes race strategist instructed Pirelli to set pressure at the low limit, he surely didn't mean exactly at the low limit, but slightly higher above due to anticipated pressure drop during cooling cycle, and only Pirelli knows how much above that has to be to stay within legal limits before race starts, and tires begging to warm up again. Anyway, I think I beat this horse to its death by now, nor I am sure whether anyone's mind has been changed.


only the Almighty is infallible, the FIA, as any governing body, can only issue rules and regulations and enforce them, that's what they're there to do. To my knowledge there is nothing in the FIA's rules and regulations that sets out the procedure to measure certain criteria such as tyre pressure.

For that reason I must conclude that Hamilton and Rosberg have been allowed to race because otherwise F1 would have looked like a bunch of amateurs, not because there was something to be clarified in the FIA's procedure to asses the tyres temperature.

If the tyre pressure must be above, say, 18 psi, then it means that any time a tyre is fitted to a car the pressure must be above 18 psi, to me it looks very simple and straightforward.

If on the other hand they decide that the pressure must be above 18 psi after Charlie Whiting has had a big burger and a pint and they must measure the pressure only 2 minutes after they have removed the blankets, that what they'll have to do, and if Charlie doesn't want t a burger but he would rather have roast chicken then they won't, from a purely legal point of view, be in the position to test the tyre pressure of any entrant as they wouldn't be in compliance with the regulatory criteria that have been issue to determine which procedure the stewards at any event must meet in order to check the tyre pressure. To my knowledge there is no rule in place that defines what procedure must be followed to check a tyre pressure of a car on the grid of a race event (nor there is any procedure that implies that Charlie cannot have roast checken rather than burgers before they check a car's tyres pressure)
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:45 pm

Physical relationship between tire pressure and tire temperature is dynamic, and non-linear. FiA of course doesn't has to concern themselves with tire temperature, that's Pirelli's (and team) job, however point has been made, that with time, due to temperature changes of material, measured pressure will yield a different value.
It was noticed, that due to a different positions on the grid, which placed measurement of pressure in Rosberg’s tires on additional delay, it was enough to incur more cooling and make even more difference than on Hamilton’s car, and that’s despite that both cars (allegedly) were set to the same initial pressure point. This suggests, chickens and burgers notwithstanding, it makes difference how much lag is there after blankets are taken off and Bauer (tech. delegate) shows up with his gauge.
Teams should be perhaps also more diligent when setting pressure point in heated tires high enough just to ensure that end of cooling cycle measurement keeps them in adherence to regulations, and stop relaying too much on Pirelli, because I could be wrong, but I think this should be Pirelli's knowledge domain to know, where the set point is for pre-race ambient conditions. (Rate of changes between tire temperature and internal pressure is proprietary information developed by Pirelli through empirical process during development).
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Mach on Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:20 pm

I doubt tyre pressure is Mercedes secret to success.
I find it interesting Hamilton measured 0.3 psi below regulations and still won the race with around half a minute to spare. Probably could have been over a minute if Hamy got his engineers "hurry up" call sooner.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:52 pm

Mercedes was facing potentially time deduction penalty for controversy related to measurement of pre-race tire pressure, and in anticipation of FiA's decision, the driver was subsequently instructed in essence to stop cruising, and build up a large gap as a precautionary measure. We know he could do it, however what we do not know, how much more faster and for how long he could go. Radio traffic from him stated that he was at the max, but I do not trust neither him or his team revealing all, and stay naked before regulators, that a gap is HUGE. One thing is for sure, he utilized available flow of fuel as much as he needed.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:00 pm

Sakae wrote:Physical relationship between tire pressure and tire temperature is dynamic, and non-linear. FiA of course doesn't has to concern themselves with tire temperature, that's Pirelli's (and team) job, however point has been made, that with time, due to temperature changes of material, measured pressure will yield a different value.
It was noticed, that due to a different positions on the grid, which placed measurement of pressure in Rosberg’s tires on additional delay, it was enough to incur more cooling and make even more difference than on Hamilton’s car, and that’s despite that both cars (allegedly) were set to the same initial pressure point. This suggests, chickens and burgers notwithstanding, it makes difference how much lag is there after blankets are taken off and Bauer (tech. delegate) shows up with his gauge.
Teams should be perhaps also more diligent when setting pressure point in heated tires high enough just to ensure that end of cooling cycle measurement keeps them in adherence to regulations, and stop relaying too much on Pirelli, because I could be wrong, but I think this should be Pirelli's knowledge domain to know, where the set point is for pre-race ambient conditions. (Rate of changes between tire temperature and internal pressure is proprietary information developed by Pirelli through empirical process during development).


I'd like to understand how you think that such a rule has been implemented for decades in all categories of motorsport without any issue on the procedure and on the timing of taking the measurement, that's what I'm really struggling to understand in your argument, it seems that it's something new and never tried before, the problem is that it's not new and everyone (with very very very very few exceptions) has managed for decades to comply with that rule week in week out
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Fri Dec 25, 2015 9:14 am

Paolo 2 wrote:
Sakae wrote:Physical relationship between tire pressure and tire temperature is dynamic, and non-linear. FiA of course doesn't has to concern themselves with tire temperature, that's Pirelli's (and team) job, however point has been made, that with time, due to temperature changes of material, measured pressure will yield a different value.
It was noticed, that due to a different positions on the grid, which placed measurement of pressure in Rosberg’s tires on additional delay, it was enough to incur more cooling and make even more difference than on Hamilton’s car, and that’s despite that both cars (allegedly) were set to the same initial pressure point. This suggests, chickens and burgers notwithstanding, it makes difference how much lag is there after blankets are taken off and Bauer (tech. delegate) shows up with his gauge.
Teams should be perhaps also more diligent when setting pressure point in heated tires high enough just to ensure that end of cooling cycle measurement keeps them in adherence to regulations, and stop relaying too much on Pirelli, because I could be wrong, but I think this should be Pirelli's knowledge domain to know, where the set point is for pre-race ambient conditions. (Rate of changes between tire temperature and internal pressure is proprietary information developed by Pirelli through empirical process during development).


I'd like to understand how you think that such a rule has been implemented for decades in all categories of motorsport without any issue on the procedure and on the timing of taking the measurement, that's what I'm really struggling to understand in your argument, it seems that it's something new and never tried before, the problem is that it's not new and everyone (with very very very very few exceptions) has managed for decades to comply with that rule week in week out


Procedure HOW TO measure was a problem, or rather open to ambiguity creeping in when performed not exactly the same way, and therefore it was modified later on. FiA would not have done it, if everything was fine and dandy. I have not bothered with analysis why this came up only now.

Toto Wolff calls on F1 to change tyre pressure measuring process

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/9981778/toto-wolff-calls-on-f1-to-change-tyre-measuring-process
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