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Who Demanded Hybrids?

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

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Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby xpowdrman on Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:56 pm

May I ask who among the ticket-buying fans demanded hybrid cars with mediocre performance? No one I'm aware of. Who among the drivers demanded hybrids with mediocre performance? No one I'm aware of. Who among the broadcasters demanded hybrids with mediocre performance? No one I'm aware of. Who among the manufacturers demanded hybrids with mediocre performance? There may have been one or even more but it's impossible to know since so many Formula 1 decisions are arrived at in whispered meetings behind closed doors. However, that manufacturers would argue for hybrids makes no sense. Who would voluntarily make one's job drastically more difficult while adding millions to development costs for cars that are significantly slower than those of years past? It's pathetic that course records at nearly all the legacy tracks were set more than a decade ago.

I want to watch races with fast, sophisticated cars that are actually dependent on driver talent to win, not rolling motherboards so technically complex that electronics nearly makes the driver superfluous. That a car will not even start if the steering wheel can't talk to an onboard computer is ridiculous. I'm not a Luddite, crying for a return to cars that killed drivers on a regular basis, but I think there is a strong argument to be made for cars that are (1) drastically less complex and (2) blast out sounds that raise the hairs on the backs of our necks.

What we've got now is a sport lying fallow, shedding fans when there is simply no reason why it has to be that way. Why the FIA is fighting so hard for incredibly complex cars with mediocre performance is simply beyond me.
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Paolo 2 on Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:01 am

xpowdrman wrote:Who among the manufacturers demanded hybrids with mediocre performance?


Mercedes, they had clearly said that either they were given hybrids or they would leave. And not only they were given hybrids, they were even allowed to write the rules
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Sakae on Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:26 am

Who wrote (current) rules is not entirely clear, but I do agree that it was alleged in media, quoting Mr. Ecclestone, that Mercedes was consulted by FiA without others being present, yet that's FiA's way how they operate, farming out to F1 teams some ideas before rules are changed. That's happening all the time (just ask McLaren how many contracts they received, and the same goes for RBR, just as I assume probably with Maranello).

Back to engines, I read on more than one occasion, that actually it was Renault who stood behind it as main thrust of the project. It was well documented, there were regularly scheduled meetings for long time with Renault, Mercedes, Ferrari, and FiA at the table - without Honda, a candidate engine supplier. V6 saga as a concept however is supposedly brainchild of one MM, or at least framework of it. It is my contention, that this project would have not fly, had FiA and FOM said collectively NO to it. Maybe letting manufacturers series to separate was a better solution, instead breaking it up.

The technological change had substance, I have no problem with it, but the same change probably was mismanaged, and over-engineered, so much is clear. Different problem, and for me an interesting one is, whether teams can run those PU(s) without, or minimal engineering support. I do not like too many buttons on the wheel, I do not like too many engineers analyzing race in real time, but considering totality of all vectors within regulatory, restrictive domain, the resultant is, what it is, and stroke of a pen is not possible, unless F1 starts once again all over - with a different system. Current system is very much engineering support depended, and that one is not only costly, but tilted overly towards WCC.
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Paolo 2 on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:29 pm

talking about Mercedes http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/68357/ ... -pressioni

it's an interesting article, one has to wonder why they suddenly need to warm up the brakes before they even start the war up lap
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Sakae on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:58 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:talking about Mercedes http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/68357/ ... -pressioni

it's an interesting article, one has to wonder why they suddenly need to warm up the brakes before they even start the war up lap

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tech-analysis-mercedes-brake-heating-a-tyre-boost/?v=2&s=1&q=mercedes+brakes
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Lawrence on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:44 am

I think this is the concern: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Motor_Carriage_Company#/media/File:Stanley_Woggle-Bug.jpg

It is a Stanley Steamer. No one would run a race series with steam powered cars anymore.

An interesting article from 2011: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/04/f1-set-for-electric-only-in-the-pit-lane/

I already know a guy who drives a fully electric Tesla...that can drive itself !!! This is now road car technology. I was sitting at a stop light today, and to my right was the Tesla sports car and crossing the road in front of me was guy on a Segway....and all I could think of was F1. We are going to bring F1 back to screaming gas-guzzling simple combustion engine V-8's? Really? How retro. In fact, it is reactionary.
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Sakae on Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:38 am

It is not lost on anyone, that retro proponent is 85 year old.
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Paolo 2 on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:09 am

Lawrence wrote:I think this is the concern: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Motor_Carriage_Company#/media/File:Stanley_Woggle-Bug.jpg

It is a Stanley Steamer. No one would run a race series with steam powered cars anymore.

An interesting article from 2011: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/04/f1-set-for-electric-only-in-the-pit-lane/

I already know a guy who drives a fully electric Tesla...that can drive itself !!! This is now road car technology. I was sitting at a stop light today, and to my right was the Tesla sports car and crossing the road in front of me was guy on a Segway....and all I could think of was F1. We are going to bring F1 back to screaming gas-guzzling simple combustion engine V-8's? Really? How retro. In fact, it is reactionary.


the new Formula E season gets under way this week end in Beijin

And the Tesla is a fantastic car, I am seriously thinking of trading in my old BMW for a Model S
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Lawrence on Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:56 am

Paolo 2 wrote:the new Formula E season gets under way this week end in Beijin


I am going to watch it also (I watched parts of last season). It is still something less than F3, with bigger names.

And the Tesla is a fantastic car, I am seriously thinking of trading in my old BMW for a Model S


Haven't checked their performance specs.... but a week ago one just leaped away from me at the stop light. They are not cheap though.
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Lawrence on Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:38 pm

Performance is based upon model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S

I was right next to the dealership, so it was probably a dealer model, but it definitely pulled away much faster than I could have, so I suspect it was one of those 400 HP versions.

This is part of the rather impressive package: http://www.autoblog.com/2014/10/09/tesla-d-awd-model-s-new-autopilot-surprise/

AutoPilot

Beginning with vehicles manufactured in late September 2014, all new Model S come equipped with a camera mounted at the top of the windshield, forward looking radar in the lower grill, and ultrasonic sonar sensors in the front and rear bumpers—providing a 360 degree buffer zone around the car. This equipment allows Model S to detect road signs, lane markings, obstacles, and other vehicles. In addition to adaptive cruise control and lane departure warning, this system will enable semi-autonomous drive and parking capabilities. These features have been implemented, and have been activated via over-the-air software updates as of October 15, 2015.




At what point do drivers become antiquated?
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Sakae on Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:51 pm

Lawrence wrote: At what point do drivers become antiquated?
When? Soon after homo sapiens becomes reliably predictable animal, we all will carry computer implants, and life becomes an equation with one solution only.
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Lawrence on Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Well, the problem for Formula One is that road cars are, in some cases, are more advanced than what they are racing in F1. If they go back to retro V-8s and take all the KERS and other stuff out, that will definitely be the case. Can F1 be the premier racing series in the world when that average commuter car is technologically more advanced?

Unfortunately, I think F1 has to move forward. Whether the current arrangement (which only lasts one more year) is the best path forward is another subject. Perhaps for 2017 they need to look at a different arrangement. But, I don't think the answer is moving back.

One cannot rule out that driving your own car will become antiquated in the next 20 to 40 years. At what point will the technology be perfected, trusted and broadly available? At that point, when most people don't drive their own car, is the appeal of F1 going to shrink? Is F1 one or two generations away from irrelevance?
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Paolo 2 on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:17 pm

Lawrence wrote:Well, the problem for Formula One is that road cars are, in some cases, are more advanced than what they are racing in F1. If they go back to retro V-8s and take all the KERS and other stuff out, that will definitely be the case. Can F1 be the premier racing series in the world when that average commuter car is technologically more advanced?

Unfortunately, I think F1 has to move forward. Whether the current arrangement (which only lasts one more year) is the best path forward is another subject. Perhaps for 2017 they need to look at a different arrangement. But, I don't think the answer is moving back.

One cannot rule out that driving your own car will become antiquated in the next 20 to 40 years. At what point will the technology be perfected, trusted and broadly available? At that point, when most people don't drive their own car, is the appeal of F1 going to shrink? Is F1 one or two generations away from irrelevance?


I think that F1 cars should be less technologically advanced that road cars, road cars have been fitted for decades with ABS brakes, traction control, stability control and so many other settings and electronic aides that some manufacturers are starting to sell cars that drive themselves, I don't want an F1 cars that doesn't need a driver.
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Sakae on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:59 pm

I have difficulty convincing myself that all in favor turning clock back really know, what issue with V8 engines they are addressing, and which problem trying to solve. To me this has earmarks of an add hock solution to a dubiously defined future of F1. Mr. Ecclestone is also being quoted that he might not ask engine suppliers, but simply tell (order) them to switch. I am sure all concerned - after spending several hundred MM EUR on development of V6 technology will appreciate that. Sounds like he wants them out, and replace them all with Cosworth (isn't that place actually owned by Audi?).
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Re: Who Demanded Hybrids?

Postby Paolo 2 on Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:41 pm

Sakae wrote:I have difficulty convincing myself that all in favor turning clock back really know, what issue with V8 engines they are addressing, and which problem trying to solve.


the issue that they are trying to address is a F1 which is not dominated by engine manufacturers: today's engines are so expensive that only a few companies have the funds and the willingness to build one, the V8s were much cheaper and they believe, rightly or wrongly, that with the reintroduction of the V8s independent engine manufacturers could be tempted back into the sport thus destroying the stronghold of the current engine manufacturers
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