ad
Countdown to 2016 Australian Grandprix:
2016 Formula1 World Championship Calendar

Australia | Bahrain | China | Russia | Spain | Monaco | Canada | Baku | Austria | Great Britain | Hungary | Germany | Belgium | Italy | Singapore | Malaysia | Japan | USA | Mexico | Brazil | Abu Dhabi

Drivers versus Teams

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

Moderators: Lyria, Mafia, Lawrence, Administrator

Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lawrence on Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:05 am

This year's drivers champion drove home the differences between teams vice drivers. The first ten positions in the drivers championship was taken by five pairs of teams

Positions 1 & 2: Hamilton over Rosberg 381 to 322 (85% of Hamilton's points)
Positions 3 & 4: Vettel over Raikkonen 278 to 150 (54%)
Positions 5 & 6: Bottas over Massa 136 to 121 (89%)
Positions 7 & 8: Kvyat over Ricciardo 95 to 92 (97%)
Positions 9 & 10: Perez over Hulkenberg 78 to 58 (74%)

Only for the next three team does anyone do well or poor enough to not pair the teammates together:

Positions 11 & 14: Grosjean over Maldonado 51 to 27 (53%)
Positions 12 & 15: Verstappen over Sainz 49 to 18 (37%)
Positions 13 & 18: Nasr over Ericson 27 to 9 (33%)

Positions 16 & 17: Button over Alonso 16 to 11 (69%)
Positions 19, 20, 21: Merhi, Rossi, Stevens all at 0 (as was Magnussen who ran one race with McLaren).
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
User avatar
Lawrence
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 10465
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 am
Location: United States --- Washington DC

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Mach on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:39 am

What about how "team orders" variable input affect your output table?
:clint:
"We exercised our veto in compliance with our legitimate commercial right to do business as a powertrain manufacturer" Maurizio Arrivabene
User avatar
Mach
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:02 pm

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lawrence on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:02 am

I don't think that was much of a factor over the season. It may have come in play for a team or two for a race or two, but there really was not much stuff about team orders this season. Verstappen not obeying his orders is the only major incident I can recall.

Still, team politics did not result of Kimi having only 54% of the points as Vettel. The qualifying comparison between them is even more significant (15-4 I think).

I just found the stacking of the drivers by team to be pretty significant. We all know the car is more important than the driver, but here it showed up in spades.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
User avatar
Lawrence
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 10465
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 am
Location: United States --- Washington DC

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lyria on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:12 pm

Well the team principles were asked to rate the drivers for Autosport, this is the result.

2015 AUTOSPORT TEAM PRINCIPALS' TOP 10

1 Lewis Hamilton (229pts)
2 Sebastian Vettel (180)
3 Nico Rosberg (113)
4 Max Verstappen (77)
5 Daniil Kvyat (69)
6 Fernando Alonso (57)
7 Valtteri Bottas (52)
8 Sergio Perez (48)
9 Daniel Ricciardo (47)
10 Kimi Raikkonen (37)

WHO VOTED

Toto Wolff, Mercedes
Maurizio Arrivabene, Ferrari
Sir Frank Williams, Williams
Christian Horner, Red Bull
Vijay Mallya, Force India
Franz Tost, Toro Rosso
Federico Gastaldi, Lotus
Eric Boullier, McLaren
Monisha Kaltenborn, Sauber
John Booth, Manor


There's other information about who has gone up and down the table from last year here: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122079
User avatar
Lyria
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 17749
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:01 am
Location: England

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Paolo 2 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:13 pm

Lawrence wrote:This year's drivers champion drove home the differences between teams vice drivers. The first ten positions in the drivers championship was taken by five pairs of teams

Positions 1 & 2: Hamilton over Rosberg 381 to 322 (85% of Hamilton's points)
Positions 3 & 4: Vettel over Raikkonen 278 to 150 (54%)
Positions 5 & 6: Bottas over Massa 136 to 121 (89%)
Positions 7 & 8: Kvyat over Ricciardo 95 to 92 (97%)
Positions 9 & 10: Perez over Hulkenberg 78 to 58 (74%)

Only for the next three team does anyone do well or poor enough to not pair the teammates together:

Positions 11 & 14: Grosjean over Maldonado 51 to 27 (53%)
Positions 12 & 15: Verstappen over Sainz 49 to 18 (37%)
Positions 13 & 18: Nasr over Ericson 27 to 9 (33%)

Positions 16 & 17: Button over Alonso 16 to 11 (69%)
Positions 19, 20, 21: Merhi, Rossi, Stevens all at 0 (as was Magnussen who ran one race with McLaren).


very interesting, I think that Sainz was very unlucky (if I remember correctly he had 6 DNFs due to mechanical problems) and should have been closer in terms of points to his team mate. Same for Ericsson, even though at the beginning of the season I thought that Nasr would run rings around him in the end I would say that they were quite close in terms of performance. And finally Hulkenberg should have probably scored more points if it wasn't for bad luck (in terms of bad luck I'd also mention Massa)
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Paolo 2 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:21 pm

Lyria wrote:Well the team principles were asked to rate the drivers for Autosport, this is the result.

2015 AUTOSPORT TEAM PRINCIPALS' TOP 10

1 Lewis Hamilton (229pts)
2 Sebastian Vettel (180)
3 Nico Rosberg (113)
4 Max Verstappen (77)
5 Daniil Kvyat (69)
6 Fernando Alonso (57)
7 Valtteri Bottas (52)
8 Sergio Perez (48)
9 Daniel Ricciardo (47)
10 Kimi Raikkonen (37)


this list leaves me quite cold if I'm honest. I can't quite understand how Bottas could be ranked 7th and Massa not even making it into the top 10 when Massa was so often faster that Bottas. I'd also say that Ricciardo deserved to be further ahead. I then believe that Hulkenberg and Sainz should have been included in the top 10, and if we admit that Alonso had a few great moments despite that car, in fairness I think that the same should apply to Button who in my very own view was rather close if not on a par with Nando this season. IMHO Raikkonen and Bottas don't deserve to be in that list, in 2015 they didn't shine (all that they achieved was taking each other out :hihi: ), and I also believe that the top 3 should be much closer, on the one hand Hamilton wasn't so far ahead of the field and Rosberg, after he managed to overcome what he had to endure last year after Spa, was IMHO much better than that
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lawrence on Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:02 pm

Yea, I usually find these various voting poles to be a little odd. I suspect the points were based upon ranking by each voter, so of course, the points would greatly favor the top dog.

I may post it up some time, but I have a book written by four different racing journalists where they each picked who the top 10 drivers were in F1 ever. The lists don't match near as much as you would expect them to.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
User avatar
Lawrence
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 10465
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 am
Location: United States --- Washington DC

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Paolo 2 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:10 pm

Lawrence wrote:Yea, I usually find these various voting poles to be a little odd. I suspect the points were based upon ranking by each voter, so of course, the points would greatly favor the top dog.



that would explain why Bottas makes the top 10... Toto... :roll: :roll: :roll:
Paolo 2
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lawrence on Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:12 pm

I am sure most of the guys voting did not spend as much time on it as we will analyzing it.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
User avatar
Lawrence
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 10465
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 am
Location: United States --- Washington DC

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Mach on Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:54 pm

Yes to Hamilton with Nico should be P2 finishing well ahead of Seb

I don't think Fernando should be on the list at all. He missed the first race due to crashing out during off season testing....he retired at least a half dozen times....crashed into Kimi...made it to top 10 maybe once.

I agree Massa should be on the list

Max was amazing and should be higher up as he made his presence felt throughout the season

Kimi higher up too. He did finish P4 in WCC as expected well ahead of P5

Perez shouldn't be on the list. He did well in the last couple races
:clint:
"We exercised our veto in compliance with our legitimate commercial right to do business as a powertrain manufacturer" Maurizio Arrivabene
User avatar
Mach
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:02 pm

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lyria on Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:17 pm

Mach wrote:Yes to Hamilton with Nico should be P2 finishing well ahead of Seb

I don't think Fernando should be on the list at all. He missed the first race due to crashing out during off season testing....he retired at least a half dozen times....crashed into Kimi...made it to top 10 maybe once.

I agree Massa should be on the list

Max was amazing and should be higher up as he made his presence felt throughout the season

Kimi higher up too. He did finish P4 in WCC as expected well ahead of P5

Perez shouldn't be on the list. He did well in the last couple races


I think given the cars they had to their disposal, Seb deserves to be ahead of Nico, until the last few races Nico was soundly beaten by his team mate.

Alonso did better than Button when his car was working, I suppose that gives him points.

Massa should be on the list? Seriously? Why? I can't see why at all.

Max was brilliant, for me he only made one really stupid mistake in Monaco, beyond that he did incredibly well.

Kimi was lacklustre most of the season, he wasn't the Kimi he used to be a few years ago. He looked good in the Lotus a couple of years back but this year he seemed to be coasting a bit I felt.

Perez has done a pretty solid job in the car he has to drive. I don't care whether he's on the list or not personally.
User avatar
Lyria
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 17749
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:01 am
Location: England

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lawrence on Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:35 pm

OK...my list (for this season only)

1. Hamilton
2. Rosberg (close to one of the best)
3. Vettel (no competition from teammate, but definitely much better than 2014)
4. Perez (yes...really...he made the Hulk look ordinary)
5. Ricciardo *
6. Kvyat (both Red Bull drivers got a lot out of the car)
7. Alonso (he really did some great drives in a awful situation...and was only slightly pissy)
8. Button (unbounded professionalism....a real class act)
9. Grosjean (a really good driver and positive personality, proven to be as good as Kimi when Kimi is trying hard)
10. Bottas (because an on-form Massa is not a complete stroker)
11. Verstappen (the only thing we really know about him is that is at least as good as Sainz)*
12. Massa (because he really did well....but there are only so many places on the list)
13. Sainz
14. Nasr (but towards the end of the season Ericson matched him...first you have to beat your teammate)



* Proven to be better than Vergne, took on the next upcoming Red Bull driver (Kvyat) and beat him in points and qualifying, beat Vettel in 2014....at some point you have to give him respect. Who else does he have to beat before you take him seriously?

** Note that last year, Kvyat looked to be the great upcoming driver until he got teamed with DR. We kind of have to wait until Verstappen is paired with a top driver before we decide he is the next Hamilton.

Not on list:
Kimi (sorry, sleepwalked to 4th in the standings)
Hulkenburg: Came back to life after winning Lemans and matched Perez for a few races, but in the end, was overshadowed.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
User avatar
Lawrence
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 10465
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 am
Location: United States --- Washington DC

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lyria on Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:48 pm

One other point, Bottas may not be the fastest driver, but I follow him on twitter and he's a seriously nice guy, he's also 'favourited' three of my tweets now. So I like him ;)
User avatar
Lyria
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 17749
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:01 am
Location: England

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lawrence on Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:09 am

Lyria wrote:One other point, Bottas may not be the fastest driver, but I follow him on twitter and he's a seriously nice guy, he's also 'favourited' three of my tweets now. So I like him ;)


I like Bottas too.... but...... Massa is a very known quantity, having been a teammate to Schumacher, Raikkonen and Alonso. If you are not doing notably better than Massa as a teammate... then you are probably not in the top six or so drivers in F1.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
User avatar
Lawrence
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 10465
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 am
Location: United States --- Washington DC

Re: Drivers versus Teams

Postby Lyria on Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:14 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Lyria wrote:One other point, Bottas may not be the fastest driver, but I follow him on twitter and he's a seriously nice guy, he's also 'favourited' three of my tweets now. So I like him ;)


I like Bottas too.... but...... Massa is a very known quantity, having been a teammate to Schumacher, Raikkonen and Alonso. If you are not doing notably better than Massa as a teammate... then you are probably not in the top six or so drivers in F1.


No I'm not trying to say he's an exceptionally good driver, just that he seems like a polite and nice guy. He seems like an average to fairly good driver but I don't look at him and think potential world champion one day, however I do look at Max Verstappen and think that, so long as his success doesn't go to his head that is.
User avatar
Lyria
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 17749
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:01 am
Location: England

Next

Return to Formula One Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

cron

Copyright 1988-2011, Inside F1, Inc.