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Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 titles?

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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:53 am

Lawrence wrote:What bothers me is that they have stripped them of his seven titles but do not feel that they can award them to anyone else....because they might have (or probably were) also drugging. That sort of the opens up the question, if they cannot determine who might of fairly won the race.....then......

This whole situation makes me laugh. They 'vacate' the result, which means there are now seven Tours de France with no winner..... because, as you say, they might have to get back to the fourth or fifth place finisher to find a clean rider. It just makes you go :eh: then :rotflmao:

Never mind the fact that even if they were all doping Lance still beat everyone seven times in a row. And pay no heed to the measured physiological differences in Armstrong's body that would clearly set him apart regardless of doping..... the larger heart (not in the spiritual sense, I mean the muscle in his chest that pumps blood is physically larger than normal), the higher VO2/max, the fact that (at the time) he was the only human being known to improve his muscular efficiency over time......

But then again, I'm not big on the whole idea of vacating sporting results as a concept. This played out this most recent year at my alma mater, Penn State, when over 100 wins were wiped off the head coach's record for his role in a child abuse case perpetrated by one of his long-time assistant coaches. The coach went from being the winningest coach in D1 history to 12th. It's an absurdity that serves only to punish student-athletes who had no complicity whatsoever with the crimes.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:35 pm

f1datavis wrote:Fair enough. To sum up, I believe even athletes "trained from a young age" are able to hold more than a single thing in their brains at on time.


Are they really....especially the top ones?
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:44 pm

So...can the guys who finished 2nd during those seven races petition or sue to be moved up to first?
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby IanK on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:07 am

Bump for an interesting stat I saw. I can't verify its accuracy, but given the cycling atmosphere of the past two decades I don't really doubt it all that much.

Supposedly, if you gave Lance Armstrong's 2005 Tour de France title to the highest-placed finisher who has never tested positive for PEDs or been accused of doping it would go to the man who finished 25th.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:56 pm

IanK wrote:Bump for an interesting stat I saw. I can't verify its accuracy, but given the cycling atmosphere of the past two decades I don't really doubt it all that much.

Supposedly, if you gave Lance Armstrong's 2005 Tour de France title to the highest-placed finisher who has never tested positive for PEDs or been accused of doping it would go to the man who finished 25th.


I would love to know where that stat came from or if anyone could verify it (or maybe it was just a snide remark). But yes.......if everyone is cheating.......then.........
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby f1datavis on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:53 pm

...the sport is dead. RIP.

Well done everybody; that was worthwhile, wasn't it?
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby andrew. on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:08 pm

Ultimately he "won" by illegal means. That alone should mean disqualification. However it was so long ago would stripping him of his titles actually be a worthwhile exercise? I mean, he'll have made an absolute fortune and will be set up for the rest of his life since his unprecendented run of wins.

Stripping a drugs cheat of their titles is the correct course of action however given the time that's passed I have to wonder what effect, if any it'll have. He's basically got away with it for long enough that he could quite possibly disappear from the public eye or write a book about how the determination to win clouded his judgement (whether or not that would be genuine is another question) that's he's still made in the shade. Sure his reputation will suffer but when you're net worth is $125 million who cares?
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby f1datavis on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:53 pm

Armstrong is going to be financial ruined and possibly even jailed.

He has up to ten court cases pending against him where various entities want their money back they claim was earned fraudulently (you can see their point). Much more serious is the fact that if he admits doping, he essentially also admits perjuring himself in case where he sued a newspaper for libel and he explicitly said in open court he had never taken drugs. He won the case and was awarded damages. For that, you straight to jail...
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby andrew. on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:00 pm

I didn't realise that. Time for a name change, extensive plastic surgery and a change of country.

Stripping him of his titles is potentially just the tip of the iceberg then!
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Paul on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:24 pm

Its SALEM all over again. All the good that Man has done, counts for nothing when the witch hunters get their claws sharpened.
For me he did fek all that anyone else wasn't doing at the time, and Legally I might add.

Then again, I seem to remember a story about a pretty decent bloke called Jesus too :roll:
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:16 am

Did his doping give him an "unfair advantage" (to use a Mark Donahue phrase) or was it simply leveling the playing field?

How deep was the doping? Were 3 or 4 other riders doing it....or more like 25 others riders? Obviously the whole U.S. team was, as was several other teams.....so I gather it was pretty wide spread. If that is the case, then what would you expect would happen?
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Warweezil on Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:13 pm

tifosi77 wrote:But then again, I'm not big on the whole idea of vacating sporting results as a concept. This played out this most recent year at my alma mater, Penn State, when over 100 wins were wiped off the head coach's record for his role in a child abuse case perpetrated by one of his long-time assistant coaches. The coach went from being the winningest coach in D1 history to 12th. It's an absurdity that serves only to punish student-athletes who had no complicity whatsoever with the crimes.


Yeah I didn't get that... I have little real knowledge of what went on, but for me the wrong extends to the individual team members who played in the "winning games" I mean the TEAM won the games surely? The assistant coach wasn't a playing part of the squad right?

To vacate the result punishes the team unfairly and denies them recognition for their physical achievement which had NO connection with what an assistant coach was doing in the showers... its not like the team were there watching him of something... in effect they have tainted the members of winning squads to be able to say.. we won that - I was in that team. Plain Wrong IMHO. The guys deserve the recognition for the wins..

Those who govern sports seem to live on a different planet to the rest of us, a place devoid of common sense and a touch of fairness.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Ciro Pabón on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:51 pm

That's precisely the point, Weasel. Physical achievement means NOTHING. I still agree with the conclusion: sports are sick enterprises, because competition means nothing.

Should McLaren mechanics complain about them knowing nothing of Alonso having Ferrari telemetry?

In the same way is absurd to claim that "Hey, I'm a good boy, it's not my fault I was working for the Joker! I want to keep the money I got from Gotham City's First National Bank".

Should Kobayashi complain about running in an underfunded, underdeveloped car? So, hey, should Batman win over Superman because he has no superpowers?

Notice how I avoided (carefully!) references to Nazis.... :)

About this being a witch hunt, Paul, did you see Armstrong at Ophrah? Well, I thought the guy IS a witch.

Lance Armstrong and his famous "Just Laying Around" picture
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A good version of the same pic
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A better version, for my taste
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Warweezil on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:50 pm

Ciro Pabón wrote:That's precisely the point, Weasel. Physical achievement means NOTHING. I still agree with the conclusion: sports are sick enterprises, because competition means nothing.
... One of the reasons I'm so glad to have rediscovered the humble roots of Motorsport, yeah I watch Moto GP... but the real fun? ... its the guys and girls doing it on a shoe string most weekends at local circuits devoid of the steel and glass... and the ego's and political bull**** that destroys so much of sport - especially F1, just seeing competitors helping each other out with parts and stuff when unforeseen problems arise.. it kinda restores your faith in human nature. I'm not saying its all hearts and flowers, but by and large the people at the lower end have not lost sight of racing or the spirit of competition...

Ive said it before... but the "superstars can learn a lot from those at the much lower levels - many will no doubt disagree but its..

Just My Opinion.... YMMV
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:09 pm

Now I find myself spending time reading about the history of the Tour de France...something I really don't care about. 1998..no Lance Armstrong. Opening line in wikipedia is:

"The 1998 Tour de France, also called the Tour du Dopage (Tour of Doping), was marred by doping scandals throughout known as the Festina affair, starting with the arrest of Willy Voet, a soigneur in the French Festina team. Voet was traveling into France when he was arrested and found with large quantities of doping products. As a result, repeated police raids found drugs in the rooms of the TVM team, and the riders staged a sit-down protest during stage 17 as a reaction to the treatment. Tour directors later nullified the results of the stage. The Spanish teams pulled out of the race at the urging of the ONCE-Eroski team, led by Laurent Jalabert, the French National Champion.

This 1998 edition of Tour de France was won by Marco Pantani...."

Except in 1999 Marco Pantani could not compete in first Tour de France that Lance Armstrong won because of doping aligations (and he did fail a blood test in 1999) !!!!

So clearly, doping was common in bicycle racing, and clearly it was being done by many of the top competitors (including the 1998 Tour de France winner in 1999, when he was caught before the Tour de France).......so.....

1. Was Lance Armstrong wrong in what he did....yes
2. Was it surprising in that environment that top atheletes were doping....not in the least
3. Should they have vacated his seven titles.......only if they could fairly award them to someone else !!!!
4. Should we be indignant about Armstrong's doping.....not really, given the environment

Anyhow, an athlete is a competitor. It is up to the organizers to make sure the competition is fair and clean. If it is not (and it appears that it was not), then don't be surprised at what happens next.

Lance Armstrong in many respects has become the fall guy for the whole doping scandal as 1) he was the most successful doper and 2) he was kind of a nasty character. If there was no Lance Armstrong, then would someone clean have won the Tour de France between 1999 - 2006?
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