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Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 titles?

Talk about things which don't fit elsewhere

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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby f1datavis on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:03 pm

Think of it the other way round. Assume you are the competitor who has trained as hard as anyone else, if not harder, put in all the effort but refused to dope - maybe because your child asked you not to, your wife, your mother. You stuck to that promise, but you know can't win.... maybe even good ol' Lance even dressed you down for doing so. Are we saying that these guys deserved to lose? It is obviously rubbish.

We know that there are cyclists on the tour who refused to dope. We know this because those that have admitted it knew who they were. Armstrong himself in the interview said so.

I agree with many of the comments about vacating results - it is a mess and there is no way to award a winner, so I say don't bother. It seems that since the "biological passport" has been introduced the sport is a lot cleaner, to the point where a lot of track cyclists (it appear this was much cleaner in general over the years, and somewhat of a haven for clean cyclists) have gone over to the road.

I hated this interview/confession from Armstrong. He is obviously doing it so that he can get a living back. It is also notable that he has done so just after the statute of limitations has passed on his perjury infraction. Oprah did a fine job, but he is not really apologetic, is he? He just regrets that he was caught...
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Crossa on Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:14 am

f1datavis wrote:We know that there are cyclists on the tour who refused to dope. We know this because those that have admitted it knew who they were. Armstrong himself in the interview said so.


As a by-product of the USADA report on Lance, Dutch cycling team Rabobank has fallen from grace as well. In a series of reports, it is alleged that the teams top riders were assisted in getting dope from 1996 onwards. After tests were getting more stringent, the teams tactic changed from active to supply to passive supply: riders were not actively informed of the "options", but when they asked, they were assisted by the team's medical staff.

Some ex-riders have now come forward as well, and have confessed to doping. Some other riders, who had already been caught, have spoken out as well.

For me, the most telling thing in these interviews was they way these riders describe being the laughing stock of the peleton, for thinking they could actually compete cleanly. They all like to present themselves as a victim of their circumstances, feeling responsible for their livelihood and that of their mechanics who also have families to feed and such, and feeling as being put under pressure by sponsors and the team management. We had no option but to dope.

It is what children say when they know they've screwed up.

But it also tells you that, yes, everyone knew who was doing what. It also tells you something about culture, about patrons and watercarriers.

And then we have mr Contador going on the record over weekend saying that he felt that mr Armstrongs confession was bad for the image of the sport... It seems that not everyone has caught up with the latest in cycling culture just yet.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby LewisA on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:55 am

Yeah I feel it's fair that he's been stripped of his titles. Really messes up the stats books though.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:58 pm

Crossa wrote:For me, the most telling thing in these interviews was they way these riders describe being the laughing stock of the peleton, for thinking they could actually compete cleanly. They all like to present themselves as a victim of their circumstances, feeling responsible for their livelihood and that of their mechanics who also have families to feed and such, and feeling as being put under pressure by sponsors and the team management. We had no option but to dope.


For all practical purposes...they had no other option. You dedicate a decade or two of your life to bicycling....and you are now faced with only two options: 1) Dope and be competitive...2) don't dope and finish 25th. Not much of an option...now is it?

They were not children or necessarily particularly immoral people. As far as I can tell, the large majority (80- 90% ???) of the riders on the U.S. team, I gather the Dutch team, I gather also the Spanish, French and Italians teams...when faced with the option of doping to remain competitive or not doping...choose to dope. In many cases, they were trapped in their own sport...with the only other real option being to leave the sport.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby f1datavis on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:07 pm

Lawrence wrote:In many cases, they were trapped in their own sport...with the only other real option being to leave the sport.


Or cross over to track cycling.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:54 pm

f1datavis wrote:
Lawrence wrote:In many cases, they were trapped in their own sport...with the only other real option being to leave the sport.


Or cross over to track cycling.


Not really the same sport. In fact, didn't really know it exists except it shows up at the Olympics every 4 years. Size? Fan-base? budget?
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Jean-Pierre on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:59 pm

The same people who filled their pockets with millions during the Lance era are today condemning him. Discusting.

Since he was stripped of all his titles, the top 20 guys in all seven Tour should be disqualified as well, because we all know their were not clean.

Moreover, the top 20 competitors of all TDF which took place since doping is a well know fact should also be stripped of their position.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby f1datavis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:26 am

The doping culture of road cycling was always heading for some form of end - it was not sustainable. I'm just glad it has ended with the career explosion of the top cheat, rather than with someone's death. They came very close to severe health complications with mixed blood bags.

BTW I agree that the cycling system in general was corrupt, and agree that hypocrisy is pretty horrible, but surely Armstrong himself is the greatest hypocrite? Brazenly lied for years and years, even under oath, embezzling money out of people who dared to point out the obvious truth.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Jean-Pierre on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:39 pm

f1datavis wrote: but surely Armstrong himself is the greatest hypocrite? Brazenly lied for years and years, even under oath, embezzling money out of people who dared to point out the obvious truth.


Well, take Indurain for example, he lied for 5 years (taking drugs despite the very strict rules is lying in itself IMHO - take the banker who steel millions in secret, it is not becasue he is not caught that he is not a criminel). So all the top 20 of all the TDF were liars at the same degree IMHO and to punish only the one guy who attracted record audiences for seven years in row filling many many people's pockets in doing so, including principals of the Tour, again, makes me sick to my stomach.

Lance is the gratest champion who ever lived all sports combined IMO. Like he said, "these hypocrites can bring me to court and condemn me all they want, because what really conts is that all the guys against whom I fought know who really won the races."
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:32 pm

Jean Pierre...welcome to the forum and thanks for livening up this thread.

What bothers me is the selective morality at play here....where one person is selected for punishment (because he was the most successful) and the rest of them are politely ignored (dozens of them?). You kind of have to punish them all...or.....let them all slide and do better as a governing body in the future. The whole thing is kind of a farce.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Jean-Pierre on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:45 pm

Lawrence wrote:Jean Pierre...welcome to the forum and thanks for livening up this thread.

What bothers me is the selective morality at play here....where one person is selected for punishment (because he was the most successful) and the rest of them are politely ignored (dozens of them?). You kind of have to punish them all...or.....let them all slide and do better as a governing body in the future. The whole thing is kind of a farce.


Thank you for the nice welcome!

Yes, I agree, it is a farce. I think it is a vengeance from the head of the US regulatory body.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Lawrence on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:31 pm

Jean-Pierre wrote:Yes, I agree, it is a farce. I think it is a vengeance from the head of the US regulatory body.


Don't follow the sport, so don't know their motivation.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Jean-Pierre on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:53 pm

f1datavis wrote:Lance Armstrong is a poor human being.


I knew he was an incompetent human, but after reading "The secret race" by Tyler Hamilton, I have to conclude that LH is a absolute a** h***.
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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby Ciro Pabón on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:25 am

Lawrence wrote:Jean Pierre...welcome to the forum and thanks for livening up this thread.

What bothers me is the selective morality at play here....where one person is selected for punishment (because he was the most successful) and the rest of them are politely ignored (dozens of them?). You kind of have to punish them all...or.....let them all slide and do better as a governing body in the future. The whole thing is kind of a farce.


Well, perhaps the "it-wasn't-me, it-was-a-child-that-looked-exactly-like-me-but-he's-already-gone" defense did not work?

Seriously, this is an American invention: you pardon others if they testify against the "cappo di tutti capi". People has complained about this system since Elliot Ness and his partners invented it.

Armstrong refused to negotiate or to accuse others, so he'll rot in jail (or its sporting equivalent: life banning).

In the same way you could ask why the people that testified against Sam Giancanna (famous mafioso) were incorporated into a witness protection program and claim that it was a "vengeance" of FBI on Mafia "because many others rob and Giancanna was singled out because he was the most famous".

Armstrong coerced systematically other people: he's not an asshole but a criminal.

He deserves what he got and only the valiant prosecution of a fistful of officials finally illuminated this "sport".

Moreover, even after patent and blatant feet dragging of evidently complicit European "authorities", many others in his same circumstances (denial, denial, denial and enraged counter accusations, fueled and promoted by the status they got from their criminal activities) are being brought to justice: Ferrari and Eufemiano Fuentes are in the pipeline. Luis García del Moral y José "Pepe" Martí are banned for life. Scarponi and Valverde are banned, as well as Iván Basso and Jan Ulrich admited recently (last year) that he doped.

After Fuentes was not found guilty in 2006 (because then in Spain doping was not a crime!) and after Armstrong was found guilty, Spanish authorities have reopened the case. Let's wait to see what happens.

Fuentes arriving to the audience in January 2013
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The defendants are Fuentes, Manolo Saiz, ex-director of teams ONCE and Liberty, José Ignacio Labarta and Vicente Belda, ex-directors of Kelme and Yolanda Fuentes, sister of Emiliano. Witnesses that have accepted they doped and who had got some sort of immunity on their declarations (but are banned now) are the following cyclists: Alberto Contador, Jesús Manzano (who was the first to denounce doping), Darío Gadeo, Jorg Jaksche, Ivan Basso (already banned), Marcos Serrano, Pedro Díaz Lobato (while an active cyclist denounced doping), Ángel Vicioso, Isidro Nozal, Joseba Beloki and Michele Scarponi (already banned). Those "dozens" are already punished in the same way Armstrong was: by banning them from the sport. Fuentes also claims he will defend himself by testifying about OTHER SPORTS where athletes bought his "services", including football (well, soccer for some of you) and track and field.

As if these after shocks weren't enough, many people, whose lives Armstrong ruined, are now rehabilitated (not enough and late, but something is something).

Again, I can say I'm sorry for people like these "scum of sports".

I can understand a boxer drugging himself in desperation for money and under duress.

What is very hard to understand is the same boxer practically forcing others in his team (if boxers had a team) to follow suit, expelling from the sport other clean boxers that accused him by using his illicitly earned money and a huge team of lawyers, extorting others to keep them silent, bribing authorities with his earnings and showing lack of repentance bordering lunacy when under clear proof of his crimes.

The frost of this cake is his repeated allegations of being clean and, what really repulses me, vanity beyond comprehension always implying he was a perfect human being.

For all that it's hard to understand why some people fail to understand that he's a disgusting person and that he deserved what he got.

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Re: Should Lance Armstrong have been stripped of his 7 title

Postby f1datavis on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:14 am

+1 :clap:
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