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2011 Canadian GP Weekend

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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Sinister on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:12 pm

Grozza wrote:Good question Lyria; why has Mark suddenly lost his mojo. Maybe he only get's 50% of Newey's magic ;)



Can I use the "not that old one again" excuse here? :clint:
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Gerhard Berger on Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:07 pm

Grozza wrote:To me this looks like Jenson is setting up a standard overtaking move; he goes up the inside of Fernando (they are clearly side-by-side so there's no disputing who had the racing line), brakes to take the inside line as opposed to running Fernando out wide and then gets caught as Fernando cuts back across.



I think Fernando misjudged it; had he given Jenson a bit more room he would have automatically taken the inside line out of the corner and kept his position. Instead, racing incident.


Fernando gave enough room for Button, (at least a cars width) but Button understeers into him. He could have given Jenson more room, but they are racing so he is not going to make it easy for Button.
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Sinister on Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:52 pm

Old farts whinge about Canadian GP. :loser:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003481/Antiques-Roadshow-fans-hit-BBC-F1-leads-shows-cancellation.html


F**k Antiques Roadshow it's for boring old fogeys. :vettel:
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Adam on Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:39 pm

Did you expect anything less from the Daily Mail? :roll:

Anyway, a fairly spot-on summary of the race, shamelessly nicked from "TheWonderfulWorldOfF1":

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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Funkmother on Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:16 am

Grozza wrote:Vettel: Succumbed to high-pressure lameness. Still has a lot to prove as a racer.


Grozza wrote:... Look, what I meant was that if you look at this in terms of overall performance, Vettel is not having to work as hard to get 100% maximum performance out of that Red Bull, as say Hammy and Alonso are with their respective rides, achieving perhaps 85-95% of what’s available at best ...


Still, I don't think making a mistake, perhaps the only one we've seen this year from Seb, means he "still has a lot to prove as a racer." Isn't Jenson the guy who almost parked in someone else's pit earlier this year? Even Lord Cobbler has been known to make a mistake. :evil:
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Paolo 2 on Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:19 am

gib wrote:
Paolo 2 wrote:... the fact that he went to the radio to complain about Hamilton means that he perfectly saw what was happening to his left and that he knew that it was Hamilton and not his rear wing

Button complaining on the radio about Hamilton doesn't necessarily means he saw what was happening. It means he knew what happened after he felt the contact. I'm sure he was fully aware that Hamilton was behind him. When he felt the contact it is reasonable to assume that Button is clever enough to conclude the contact must have been with Hamilton. On top of that, given the layout of corners 2 and 3, Button had only to look to his side to see his teammate limping behind with a busted rear wheel.


Button looked at his mirror just before the two collided! It is clear when watching the TV footage and Button confirmed it. I'm ok if we want to say that Button is cool etc., but saying that he hadn't seen Hamilton is a completely different matter 8)
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Dev on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:56 am

Apologies for the delay, but I have been away, enjoying myself. :beer: Hope everyone had a great weekend too. :beer:

Also, a bit long, but it was an eventful race, and I bet I still missed loads of things. :yay:

It's not often that a driver wins a race having made 6 pit stops (twice as many as his nearest rivals), while running 21st and last at some point of the race. But that's what Jenson did, and quite possibly no one would have predicted that midway through the race. He had a number of scrapes with other drivers, but somehow survived them all and managed to snatch an amazing victory right on the final lap.

Horrible feeling to be a McLaren fan early on, with the two drivers colliding. Have to say I did think that Lewis should not have tried to force a move at that point in those conditions. I'm not sure how much of Lewis did Jenson really see before they came together. Lewis was much quicker than his teammate at that point and if he had been a little more patient, he would have found a way past. However, I have less problems with his move on Webber. I felt that if Webber had given him a bit more room, Webber would still have got the place back at the next turn where Webber would have been on the inside.

Vettel, well what could you say? He led every lap bar the last one, F1 is a cruel sport like that. Still, he failed to pull out enough of a gap earlier after the final SC, and under-estimated the speed of the McLaren. So that's twice this season he has been mugged by a McLaren late in the race. Still, that's not quite enough to bring any excitement into the title race, and it's a shame that two of his potential challengers fell away (Lewis and Fernando). Considering that the Red Bulls look damn near bulletproof now (KERS aside), is it realistic to hope that Vettel breaks down at least twice?

Mark Webber had a typical Webber race (by this year's standards). Outpaced in qualifying by his teammate, something bad happens at the start, and then spends the rest of the event fighting back to the podium. Looked quick at the end of the race, but had some problems which meant that he couldn't fight for anything higher than third.

At this point I have a confession to make. It's shameful, and I feel so dirty for doing this, but yes, I was actually cheering on Schumi. Shoot me now. He didn't have to resort to any reckless or dirty moves to gain places too, he was genuinely quick and made some clean moves (quite a contrast to his last race in Canada, where he seemed to be intent on driving anyone near him off the track). Also gets the Overtaking Move Of the Race award, for his cheeky move on both Massa and Kobayashi as they were squabbling for position. It's a real shame he failed to make it to the podium. Sadly, the Mercedes wasn't quick enough to keep the Red Bull at bay. Maybe next time eh? As for his teammate, well a day to forget, never really figured at the top end of the race, in fact we didn't see much of Britney at all.

Ferrari had an awful race, considering they started in the top 3, all they had was a miserable sixth place to show for it. Fernando Alonso's mistimed inter stop just before the rain hit the track, put paid to his chances, and later on, a racing incident with Jenson Button beached his Ferrari high and dry on the kerb. Massa looked promising early on running in the top 3, before managing to slip up while lapping backmarkers, and finished a fraction of a second ahead of Kobayashi in a photo finish.

Kobayashi I thought was real lucky to finish the race, he seem to have gotten tangled up with the majority of the grid at some point. His gamble of not stopping for inters before the red flag paid off and he was up to 2nd, but after that he couldn't quite keep up the pace on a drying track. Seemed to have real problems pulling away from corners, and that directly led to Nick Heidfeld's retirement, quite spectacular watching Quick Nick's front wing giving away live onboard. Good thing the marshal didn't get run over when he tried to clear the debris! Thankfully from a Renault point of view, Petrov managed to grab some solid points with a 5th place.

The rest of the points went to both STRs (didn't see much of them either, but somehow Algae-boy managed to finish in the points in 8th despite starting from the pitlane, while Rubinho kept his cool to finish 9th.

Random questions/points of the day :

1. Were the FIA right in red flagging the event, and then waiting 2 hours before letting the SC loose on the track for an eternity?
2. What were they trying to do, sending out people to sweep the water in the middle of a massive downpour?
3. Is bird watching an acceptable sideshow to F1?
4. Should all GPs feature a milk and cookies break/intermission, perhaps during pitstops?
5. Could they have handled the debris cleaning process better, to prevent mishaps like the close shave we saw of a guy almost getting run over?
6. Has Schumi finally found Big Joy again? Will this mark an upturn in his form?
7. How much longer will Stefano remain as team boss of Ferrari?(personally I believe he's doing a fabulous job).
8. Wasn't it appropriate that Rihanna was there on a day when everyone needed an umbrella?
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Lyria on Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:28 pm

Funkmother wrote:
Grozza wrote:Vettel: Succumbed to high-pressure lameness. Still has a lot to prove as a racer.


Grozza wrote:... Look, what I meant was that if you look at this in terms of overall performance, Vettel is not having to work as hard to get 100% maximum performance out of that Red Bull, as say Hammy and Alonso are with their respective rides, achieving perhaps 85-95% of what’s available at best ...


Still, I don't think making a mistake, perhaps the only one we've seen this year from Seb, means he "still has a lot to prove as a racer." Isn't Jenson the guy who almost parked in someone else's pit earlier this year? Even Lord Cobbler has been known to make a mistake. :evil:



+1 8)
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Lyria on Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:34 pm

Dev wrote:

Random questions/points of the day :

1. Were the FIA right in red flagging the event, and then waiting 2 hours before letting the SC loose on the track for an eternity?
2. What were they trying to do, sending out people to sweep the water in the middle of a massive downpour?
3. Is bird watching an acceptable sideshow to F1?
4. Should all GPs feature a milk and cookies break/intermission, perhaps during pitstops?
5. Could they have handled the debris cleaning process better, to prevent mishaps like the close shave we saw of a guy almost getting run over?
6. Has Schumi finally found Big Joy again? Will this mark an upturn in his form?
7. How much longer will Stefano remain as team boss of Ferrari?(personally I believe he's doing a fabulous job).
8. Wasn't it appropriate that Rihanna was there on a day when everyone needed an umbrella?


1. Well during the long wait it didn't seem worth the wait but once we finally got going again, it was a hell of a race, so on balance, I'd say yes.
2. The men with brushes was a bad idea, who thought that was ever going to help matters? Duh!
3. Depends if the birds were different to what we're used to. That red shouldered blackbird was quite cute hopping around the track like that.
4. Only if we the viewers get the milk and cookies too! Maybe we could get Bernie to do it, he's all for adding things to make the viewing of F1 better :reallyevil:
5. Yes, how that poor marshall didn't get run over is anyone's guess. Bet he needed clean trousers after that :hihi:
6. Maybe and maybe. Only time will tell.
7. Well now you've done it, he'll probably get the sack now you've said that :roll:
8. I blame Rihanna, Dev and Sinister for the rain :p
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Sinister on Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:15 pm

Lyria wrote:
Dev wrote:

Random questions/points of the day :

1. Were the FIA right in red flagging the event, and then waiting 2 hours before letting the SC loose on the track for an eternity?
2. What were they trying to do, sending out people to sweep the water in the middle of a massive downpour?
3. Is bird watching an acceptable sideshow to F1?
4. Should all GPs feature a milk and cookies break/intermission, perhaps during pitstops?
5. Could they have handled the debris cleaning process better, to prevent mishaps like the close shave we saw of a guy almost getting run over?
6. Has Schumi finally found Big Joy again? Will this mark an upturn in his form?
7. How much longer will Stefano remain as team boss of Ferrari?(personally I believe he's doing a fabulous job).
8. Wasn't it appropriate that Rihanna was there on a day when everyone needed an umbrella?


1. Well during the long wait it didn't seem worth the wait but once we finally got going again, it was a hell of a race, so on balance, I'd say yes.
2. The men with brushes was a bad idea, who thought that was ever going to help matters? Duh!
3. Depends if the birds were different to what we're used to. That red shouldered blackbird was quite cute hopping around the track like that.
4. Only if we the viewers get the milk and cookies too! Maybe we could get Bernie to do it, he's all for adding things to make the viewing of F1 better :reallyevil:
5. Yes, how that poor marshall didn't get run over is anyone's guess. Bet he needed clean trousers after that :hihi:
6. Maybe and maybe. Only time will tell.
7. Well now you've done it, he'll probably get the sack now you've said that :roll:
8. I blame Rihanna, Dev and Sinister for the rain :p



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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:12 pm

MikaPup wrote:And here's Jenson, making the very same passing move on another driver later in the race. Note the actual racing line, and the absence of the leading car pushing Jenson into the wall...

Image

That picture was taken a good twenty minutes after the Button-Hamilton incident and conditions had changed somewhat. That doesn't necessarily mean the line had moved..... but if you watch video clips that show more of the track you can see clearly that Button was simply following the racing line. If anything, the pic you're using here shows that the other car is off the line; you can even see the cars in the background of the pic are on the trajectory that Button's on.

"He probably hadn't spotted me, he continued moving across on the racing line." -- Lewis Hamilton


Paolo 2 wrote:Button said he saw him on his mirror, so the livery of the McLaren wasn't a contributing factor. The fact that he went on and said that he thought that it was his rear wing only proves to me that he perfectly saw what was happening. And let's not forget that this action started at the chicane, Hamilton started to charge on Button's side at the exit of the chicane, we can't even pretend that spray played a part in this and blocked Button's visibility. He had a very clear picture of what was happening, and the fact that he went to the radio to complain about Hamilton means that he perfectly saw what was happening to his left and that he knew that it was Hamilton and not his rear wing.

I have no idea what incident you're referring to; Hamilton didn't even pop out from behind Button until they were probably 200 meters downstream from the chicane.... just at the point where the racing line veers driver's left for the kink at the old pit exit.

What Button said was, "I couldn't see a thing behind me except a blur of Vodafone rocket-red, but that could have been my rear wing". That's not the same thing as saying "I looked in my mirror, saw Lewis and decided to hip-check him into the wall."

He knew his team mate was behind him.... he knew he got a poor drive out of the chicane.... he knew there was some sort of contact between his car and some car behind him...... and so therefore getting on the radio to complain about said contact is proof that he initiated said contact intentionally??? What kind of law school teaching critical thinking like that? ;)

Getting on the radio and exclaiming "What is he doing?!" seems to me more indicative of incredulity rather than culpability.

It was David Coulthard, I believe, who immediately after the incident commented that "The problem in those conditions is Jenson Button can't see in his mirrors, there's so much spray coming off the front axle." That was a contemporaneous assessment (Hamilton was still making his way through the runoff area of turn 1 when DC made that statement), it's not like DC was voicing sympathy for Button's account.

"Obviously I'm very sorry I collided with Lewis. We spoke about it, and it's one of those things. I didn't know he was there. He went for a move; we collided, which is sad for both of us." -- Jenson Button


Paolo 2 wrote:Button looked at his mirror just before the two collided! It is clear when watching the TV footage and Button confirmed it. I'm ok if we want to say that Button is cool etc., but saying that he hadn't seen Hamilton is a completely different matter 8)

No one is denying that he looked in his mirror. What we're saying is it didn't do him any good, nor is it any sort of proof of malicious intent.

I am no fan of Button's by any means, but he's simply not the kind of driver who would do something like that deliberately, and the suggestion that it was intentional is mildly comical.
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Lyria on Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:50 pm

The same kind of arguments I have been making. Well said Tif and I couldn't agree more :thumbs:
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby Atonal on Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:56 pm

Well since we are not getting Paolo's review might as well give my two cents in this little debate. At first sight I thought well that's something we don't see, Button being pretty naughty. But on reading the after race comments, taking into account Button's incredulous radio message and the atrocious conditions I think Jenson might not be too much to blame. I dislike Button but I don't think he is that type of a driver to make such a move especially on his teammate. Was it Vettel who said recently after one of the races that he was pretty sanguine about the fact that Button was chasing him instead of any other leading driver, hinting perhaps that Button is someone least likely to risk a collision and thus avoid being overly aggressive when it comes to passing?

Coming to Hamilton, while I think he is an immensely talented driver, these past few races have seen too many red mist moments on his part. I respect the fact that he tries to make things happen and is supremely confident in his abilities to do just that. But in Montreal he tried to take Schumacher on the outside in the wet which nearly led him into the grass. We have quite a Schumacher fan club here on this board and everyone knows that might have ended in tears right there and then. Is there a time to be prudent?
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby grunf77 on Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:54 pm

Dev wrote:Abut I have been away, enjoying myself.


We don't need to know that information. :hit: :hihi:
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Re: 2011 Canadian GP Weekend

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:54 am

The thing that stood out about Hamilton's driving is that the stewards had just communicated that Hamilton was being investigated for his accident with Webber at the start of 'green flag' racing when he came together with Button.

Depending on how you slice it, that's three or four punishable accidents in two races for King Louis I, and I don't know how many total times he's been under the stewards' microscope since the start of the season. That's simply not acceptable for someone with annual title aspirations, and has f**k all to do with Ali G. All the more egregious considering three of those recent incidents resulted in the retirement of one of the cars involved.
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